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Friday, March 24, 2006

The Lithium-Ion Car

Continued from page 1

By Kevin Bullis
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The new electric sports cars use conventional lithium-ion batteries for the same reason they're now used in laptop computers: they store a lot of energy in a small, light package. But several factors have kept these batteries out of widespread use in vehicles. One is cost -- the Venturi Fetish sports car, for example, sells for over $500,000. The batteries are also tricky to operate safely in the large quantities needed in vehicles -- overheating or damage can cause them to catch fire or explode (as led to last year's Apple PowerBook battery recall). These batteries also have a short lifespan, losing their ability to hold a charge well over time, as anyone who's owned a laptop for a few years knows.

New lithium-ion battery materials, however, may change all this. Safer chemistries have recently allowed manufacturers such as Milwaukee Electric Tool in Brookfield, WI, and DeWalt Industrial Tool of Baltimore MD, to start using lithium-ion batteries in abuse-prone power tools. The new materials could also extend the batteries' lifetime, reduce their cost, and improve their performance.

In part, these advances have been due to nanotechnology. Lithium-ion batteries create a current by shuttling ions between the electrodes as the battery charges and discharges. The added surface area of nanoscale particles on electrode materials helps the ions escape, freeing more of them to travel and provide bursts of power or quick recharging.

Gotcher says that, in addition to testing their prototype for safety and performance, they plan to submit the batteries to the U.S. Department of Energy for standardized tests of battery safety and performance, including lifetime.

If the batteries do hold up to tests, widespread adoption of such a vehicle still may depend on other factors, such as gas stations installing power stations for quick charging, which will require more than a standard outlet. Gotcher says these stations could benefit from batteries, which would make it possible to draw energy from the power grid at off peak hours, saving on electricity costs, and then deliver it quickly when driver's need it.

Altairnano is hardly the only company with promising new battery materials. "There are dozens of capable advanced battery manufacturers," says Dave Goldstein, president of the Electric Vehicle Association of Greater Washington, DC and president of Program Development Associates, which does electric vehicle and advanced battery consulting. "Lithium-ion batteries are showing a tremendous amount of progress. There's still work to be done to bring the lithium-ion battery to the level that automobile manufacturers expect. They're looking for a more significant guarantee that these batteries will last at least 10 years. But the newer batteries have shown significant promise."

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  • The Lithium-Ion Car
    Guest (Bill Economidis) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    It's so over due. Bring it.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • Megawatts
      Guest (Phil ) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      Let's see...

      A typical gas car has it's 15 gallon tank filled in 5-10 minutes.  Each gallon has approx 145 million joules in it.  Assume that 25% of that actually gets converted to work and you need to transfer about 550 million joules in 10 minutes.

      Charge your battery at the same rate and you're looking at a charging rate of 1 Megawatt.  That's 2000 amps at 480 volts or 220 amps at 4160 volts.

      And you thought filling a hydrogen car was dangerous...
      Rate this comment: 12345
      • Megawatts indeed
        Guest (Tim) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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        Phil,

        I worked it out at around 5MWh feed for a 3 minute charge for a 280mile range, so I think we are talking the same level of magnitude here - megawatt connectors!

        I can see the need for some form of aircraft grade coupling using 10+ cables to allow flexability for hookup assisted by a boom.

        Filling your car will feel like hooking up to the Admiral Graf Spee!
        Rate this comment: 12345
      • Megawatts
        Guest (Max) on 03/25/2006 at 12:00 AM
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        You forget, that elektric engine is aronud 90% eficient not 25%
        Rate this comment: 12345
      • Tire Contact
        Guest (Grogue) on 04/02/2006 at 12:00 AM
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        I was thinking that a charge connector that would use a vehicles tires as conductors somehow would do the trick. Far enough apart and large enough surface area.
        Rate this comment: 12345
      • Lower Charge Current
        Guest (Grogue) on 04/02/2006 at 12:00 AM
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        Seems to me that you would only need  about 2700amps for 5 mins at a 12C rate for a 222 Ah - 270 Volt pack which would give you about 60KWh..should give a 200 mile range for an S-10EV.

        Still lots of current but if you spread it out over a large surface area its not too bad.
        Rate this comment: 12345
        • Where is all the electricity going to come from?
          Guest (Jason) on 04/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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          If a nuclear reactor can produce 1000 MWh, how many cars could one nuclear reactor charge every night?
          Rate this comment: 12345
          • Re: Where is all the electricity going to come from?
            theBike45 on 08/22/2006 at 10:50 PM
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              You are absolutely right. If everyone, or even
            a substantial portion of drivers started using electric cars, our strained grid would completely fall apart. Doing the recharging at night is not only not always possible, but in the winter the
            grid will still be humming at that hour running the heat pumps overtime. 
            Rate this comment: 12345
      • Re: Megawatts
        only_he_stands_here on 02/04/2007 at 1:55 PM
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        If a welding robot can tack a weld within 1/1000 of an inch repetedly, could we use a robotic arm to plug in our vehicals? This way people would not be subjected to VERY dangerous amounts of power. This could also solve the weight problem of the conductor. For a transfer of 1MW the weight if the insulator alone, i would imagine, would be to heavy for a person to lift easily.
        Rate this comment: 12345
  • Ways to reduce the charging curent
    Guest (Mark Shapiro) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    Electric cars don't need nearly as much energy as gasoline powered cars since electric motors are more efficient, so the charging current and wattage needn't be so high.  Making cars lighter would improve the situation further.

    And remember, you could still use the batteries in a hybrid - just yank out 90% of the batteries and throw in a generator.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • Efficiency
      Guest (Phil) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      I accounted for (roughly) the difference in efficiency between an internal combustion engine and an electric motor in my calculation.  I was even generous with respect to the electric motor which in my calculation is 100% efficient.  A real motor will need even more stored energy.
      Rate this comment: 12345
    • ICE is more like 10%
      Guest (ji) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      Internal combustion gasoline engines are only about 10% efficient in converting gasoline energy to locomotion. Almost all of it is wasted as heat.

      Regardless, charging a Li-ion battery of that capacity in minutes is going to be a real safety challenge.
      Rate this comment: 12345
  • Converting our new Toyota Highlander hybrid
    Guest (Ed Ablard) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    Anybody who can put the world in touch with reputable firms that are making conversion of current vehicles to LiIon batteries would be doing a good turn.

    I wonder about the source of the information about fires in the current setup. Can anyone enlighten us?

    Ed Ablard
    Alexandria, VA
    eablard@ablard.com
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • lithium batteries
    Guest (geoff thomas) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    Valance tech already makes safe, large format batteries.   also: for cars- let the customer buy the batterie capacity they need- here in NJ we do not need a range of 200 miles- 50 miles is fine- so modularize the purchase of the batteries to keep costs and weight down!
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • Hot swappable batteries
      Guest (Gary) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      Why not have hot swappable batteries at these energy stations, they charge the batteries they have overnight on cheap electricity, consumers then spend 2 minutes swapping them at the most, without the worry of using specialist equipment to charge them
      Rate this comment: 12345
      • hot swappable batteries
        Guest (RemyC) on 03/26/2006 at 12:00 AM
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        Yes, power cells, like any decent sci-fi movie. Snap'em in, twist and lock. Snap'em out and recharge. Takes five seconds, like changing Nascar tire! Who says the batteries have to be hard wired into the vehicle? Isn't that what the Batteries Plus store chain banking on, to become the gas station of the future?
        Rate this comment: 12345
        • Re: hot swappable batteries
          TimG on 08/22/2006 at 3:02 PM
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          Actually, the big problem with batteries is both initial cost and charging time.  Folks in a hurry won't want to be bothered waiting even '6 to 8 minutes' to charge up.  However, battery swapping need not include the entire pack.  If you just need enough charge to get home or to that meeting, the full voltage of the entire pack is rarely used.  Most of the time, we are cruising on reasonably level road.  I know there are some exceptions (San Francisco), but people will tailor their recharges around their tasks and habits.
          Rate this comment: 12345
          • Re: hot swappable batteries
            theBike45 on 08/22/2006 at 10:46 PM
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            Sorry, but the idea of hot swapping 600 pounds of batteries is out of the question. And why would you assume that the batteries you're getting are as new as your own? They won't be. Let's think a little more carefully.  Huh?
            Rate this comment: 12345
            • Re: hot swappable batteries
              scchiang on 10/12/2006 at 6:08 AM
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              I think this problem can be solved by standardization system. For example,if a standard battery can charge 1000 times and cost $1000. Each battery has a electronic counter that every charge the counter reduce the count by one until the count become zero the battery is take out service. If you swap a 500 count battery to a 600 count battery you get credit of $1.0 x (600-500) = $100 and so on.
              Rate this comment: 12345
    • Do Jersey drivers gas up every 50 miles?
      Guest (Brian Cole) on 03/26/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      Plenty of people in New Jersey do long commutes. For those only going a few miles a day, a range of 50 miles is fine, particularly if they don't mind stopping to fill up every 50 miles on longer trips:)
      -brian
      Rate this comment: 12345
  • Moores law in technology
    Guest (Jim Stack) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    Lithium will keep getting better. If Morores law of technology applied it will double in capacity and be 1/2 the price. Look at computers, cell phones and other great tech items.
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • EV sales
    Guest (ji) on 03/24/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    Sales of electric vehicles like the electric RAV-4 were limited by the manufacturer. They didn't attempt to make them easy to buy, they were preparing for the CARB rules that dictated 10% of unit sales in CA had to be zero emission by 2010. When the auto lobby got the rules changes, they immediately scrapped the otherwise promising EV programs.

    There are plenty of people willing to pay $40k for a good EV like the RAV-4, just as many as are willing to pay for a $40k Hummer or Jag. Nobody considers those models worthy of cancellation, why have different standards for those willing to pay for green vehicles as a life-style statement?
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • EV1
      Guest (Uncle Bob) on 03/25/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      I was an EV1 driver - the cars did not "sell poorly" - because they were never sold, only leased.  Plus there was a waiting list to lease or buy them.  No marketing = no sales.

      I still miss that car.  They took it away when the lease expired and wouldn't renew it.  Then they crushed all the cars.  So, so sad...
      Rate this comment: 12345
      • EV1 Team @ Altairnano
        Guest (JT) on 03/25/2006 at 12:00 AM
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        To encourage you - the core of the GM's EVI team is now at Altairnano leading the HEV/EV battery effort there.  Now with better batteries and lots more experience. 
        Rate this comment: 12345
  • heaters in an electric car?
    Guest (Greg) on 03/27/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    How would an electric car stay warm in a Minnesota winter, I've always wanted to know?  Use up half your charge for electric heat?  Propane heater in the trunk? 
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • heaters in an electric car?
      Guest (Grogue) on 04/02/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      S-10 EVs had an electric and a diesel powered heater. Diesel powered forced air heaters are very efficient, clean burning and are currently being made for marine use.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      • heater
        Guest (Wavector) on 07/14/2006 at 12:00 AM
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        Sanden has an A/C electric compressor that operates at 320 volts DC. If engineers can design a system similar to a residential heat pump then the gases could be reversed to heat instead of cool.

        http://www.sanden.com/products/electric.html
        Rate this comment: 12345
  • Change the Battery?
    Guest (Tim G.) on 05/14/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    Why would it be so difficult to change the battery?  I realize the pack is not a small item.  However, with good design and the help of a service station you could be in and out in minutes.  Then the service station would take on the task of charging the drained batteries.  All this talk of plugging in your car strikes me as silly.  Busy people will not want to treat their highly important transportation as just another appliance they can wait to have recharged.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • Change the Battery
      Guest (Allen H) on 06/08/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      Just not practical. Given the weight size, and likely location of battery packs (which could vary with each model- One of the advantages of the new lithium batteries is that they could be formed into odd shapes to conform to individual contours). Also, for a battery pack that might cost 3K, would you trade out your brand new one for one near the end of it's life cycle. Would the exxon swap out station give you a new exxon battery pack for the old Shell one etc.   Just not practical. 
      Rate this comment: 12345
      • Re: Change the Battery
        theBike45 on 08/22/2006 at 10:52 PM
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        You're absolutely right - down the road we will have several battery technologies at the same time and the bigger issue is why I would swap my new battery for one that's old, or partially gone.
        Rate this comment: 12345
      • Re: Change the Battery
        rden on 08/27/2007 at 11:51 AM
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        Battery packs would have to be standardized for swapping to take place much like  gas for your grill is the company owns the tank you own the grill and the gas  the company would own the battery pack you would own the car and the charge in it any way you look at it someone has to be able to make money off it or their isn’t going to be an infrastructure in place why do you think  big companies what hydrogen so bad they can make billions selling it just as they do on oil today
        Rate this comment: 12345
      • Re: Change the Battery
        rden on 08/27/2007 at 11:55 AM
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        5
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        Battery packs would have to be standardized for swapping to take place much like  gas for your grill is the company owns the tank you own the grill and the gas  the company would own the battery pack you would own the car and the charge in it any way you look at it someone has to be able to make money off it or their isn’t going to be an infrastructure in place why do you think  big companies what hydrogen so bad they can make billions selling it just as they do on oil today
        Rate this comment: 12345
  • How many EV's are actually distributed annually?
    Guest (ray) on 05/17/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    I've search and searched, but i can't find a figure for this...

    I'd like to know how big the whole pure EV Market is... just Battery Electrics, not Hybrids or FCEVs or such... and not just sales, but leases and 'placements' althogether...

    Anybody got any ideas?
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • battery hire
    Guest (robin) on 08/06/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    Is it possible to buy the electric car and rent the fully charged batteries when swaps are needed?
    Also I remember how large my initial cell phone battery was just ten years ago, now it's tiny. Once people start on a real commercial basis improvements may happen beyond all imagination.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • Re: battery hire
      arturik on 12/21/2006 at 3:44 AM
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      Hi, I recently read book "history of electric vehicle" and swapping batteries was already done, and very successful by Taxi Company,
      And with today technology there is no problem to make removable standard battery pack for standard taxi, or Delivery Company,
      I think it is best candidates for this trial by reason that they always circle the same places
      Rate this comment: 12345
  • batteries for conversion
    jerbo1000 on 12/31/2006 at 8:57 AM
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    1
    Hello,


    CAn anyone recommend batteries for converting a 95 saturn to electric that would provide a range of 100 miles and cost under 10,000?

    Jerbo
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • battery that last 10 years
    brady1954 on 05/08/2007 at 12:39 PM
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    Why do car manufactures want to wait until a battery can last 10 years before they make electric cars?  The battery I have in my car now
    will not last 3 years.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • Re: battery that last 10 years
      soldier on 11/05/2007 at 1:49 AM
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      This sounds awesome.

      If United States really wanted to put a hurt on the Middle East.. they'ed put a bill out there that only hybrid and electric cars on the streets unless you had a permit for a gasoline vehicle.

      Such as semi-trucks, anything that had to deal with long hauls and such.

      We'd really put those damn Middle Eastern folks out of business.. and save the enviroment too !

      Also saving soldiers lives too.
      Rate this comment: 12345
  • Lithium Ion Polyemer Battery car
    alfredrodriques on 01/04/2008 at 1:22 PM
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    Is it possible to power the car with an elelctric motor and also have  ethanol powered combustion  motor with several alternators charging the depleted batteries. The batteries  needs to be dividied in two groups primary and secondary and all placed under the seat using the entire floor board, easily accesible  by removing the seat for servicing. To begin with the car will run on primary battery and once depleted the ethanol motor will begin charging while the car runs on secondary battery and the same process  so on and so forth. The size of the motor could be determined by the experts. Remember the purpose is only for charging and  not for moving the entire car, as such one does not need a big motor. Just think of a generator./ Alternatively, we could also have power points  with the parking me