Comments

• 	Fuel Cells Wrong Approach jmaximus9 on 03/05/2008 at 11:10 PM
  Posts: 47 Avg Rating:	Fuel cells require expensive platinum, the most precious metal. Hydrogen isn't cheap to make and is hard to store.  Plugin hybrids make much more sense. Add thin membrane solar on the car body and you can increase its battery range even more. If you get the electricity from renewable resources like wind, solar, or geothermal then you have zero emissions also. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	Who said fuel cells must run on hydrogen?... gabrielg01 on 03/06/2008 at 10:22 AM
  Posts: 317 Avg Rating:	There is this ubiquitous assumption that fuel cells run on hydrogen...EXCLUSIVELY...But where do you people get that from? Fuel cells in principle can run on many other fuels. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • 	Re: Who said fuel cells must run on hydrogen?... Siphon on 03/20/2008 at 12:43 PM
    Posts: 112 Avg Rating:	And not all of them need platinum either. Higher temperature fuel cells such as solid oxide fuel cells, molten carbonate fuel cells and direct carbon fuel cells use ceramics and other common materials. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• GM and Toyota do support hydrogen technologies NHA on 03/06/2008 at 9:24 PM

  Posts: 1 Avg Rating:

  The Hydrogen Education Foundation is surprised by the inaccurate elements in the article published in the Wall Street Journal about General Motors and Toyota abandoning their support to develop hydrogen cars on March 5, 2008.  At about the same time the Wall Street Journal published their story about General Motors and Toyota, CNN published a story how BP and General Motors believe hydrogen is part of the future: http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/05/news/companies/bigoil_hydrogen/?postversion=2008030507  Plus, GM and Shell recently released a white paper which says "We have thought through many complex issues around sustainable transportation and our confidence in the future of hydrogen remains high."  The fact remains that Toyota and General Motors, plus other major autos like Honda and BMW, are continuing with their endeavors to develop hydrogen cars.  All are sponsors of the Hydrogen Education Foundation's new education initiative: H2 and You.  The hub of the program is http://www.h2andyou.org.  Separate from the frequent emphasis on hydrogen cars, the reality is hydrogen can be used to power many applications.  The next cell phone call you make could be powered by hydrogen since fuel cell power supplies support cell phone towers.  In addition, the next time you shop at Wal-Mart the box of Oreo cookies and the new Blue Ray movie you purchase could be transported with a fuel cell forklift.  While the transition to hydrogen may appear to be complicated and far into the future, organizations such as Shell, Chevron, and BP are working with the Department of Energy now to establish a hydrogen fueling infrastructure.  An initial $10 to $15 billion investment, equivalent to about one month of military spending in Iraq, would establish an initial refueling infrastructure within 2 miles anywhere within the top 100 metro areas and along all US highways.  Furthermore, more than 40 billion kg of hydrogen are produced globally each year with production plants located near or within every major metropolitan city in the US - enough to fuel 130 million fuel cell-electric vehicles annually.  Since hydrogen is also used to produce gasoline, switching from gas to hydrogen is simpler than it appears. The Hydrogen Education Foundation appreciates the complexity of transitioning to using new fuels.  We invite everyone to learn about what is fact and fiction about hydrogen as an alternative fuel. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	What ever happened to... geddarkstorm on 03/06/2008 at 9:52 PM
  Posts: 1	What ever happened to this design http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UDO/is_14/ai_78476761 using gasoline in the car to create the hydrogen for the fuel cell there and then, thus achieving efficiencies above a conventional ICE but still using the standard gasoline infrastructure? A design like that solves most of the criticism in this article. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	Fuel Cells georgeg100 on 03/07/2008 at 7:34 AM
  Posts: 1 Avg Rating:	One day hydrogen might be here. In the meantime the newer Lithium based batteries are getting better.  Why is there little research going on with regenerative braking and ultra capacitors?  Seems like this could be an econcomically viable  step. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• fuel cells vs batteries buelts on 03/07/2008 at 2:08 PM

  Posts: 9 Avg Rating:

  Neither fuel cells or batteries can a produce a car more efficient than internal combustion at a cost where your average consumer can buy it.  Seems like doing research on both technologies would make since for the time being.  Plug in hybrids with much smaller and cheaper batteries than all electrics can be produced at a reasonable cost today and result in a high efficiency for short distances which comprise the bulk of driving. This technology is economical and is being implemented.    Maybe more money could be put into battery research but until either h2 or batteries solve the problem of producing an efficient inexpensive car that can be refueled rapidly and has a few hundered mile range why not fund both.  Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: fuel cells vs batteries FreddyG on 03/08/2008 at 1:01 PM

    Posts: 6 Avg Rating:

    "... why not fund both.."  Amen!  The field of R&D is littered with unpredictable successes, failures, twists, and turns.  Many of these technologies make sense to fund in parallel and evaluate what gets traction economically.  Even biofuels, for as bad as they are with respect to overall efficiency of capturing solar energy and doing something useful with it, will play a role and should be funded to a degree.  And don't forget many things we're not funding/barely funding:  high speed rail (tried and true energy and time saver not to mention urban de-congester), heat pumps, solar space and water heating, etc etc.  "Neither fuel cells or batteries can a produce a car more efficient than internal combustion at a cost where your average consumer can buy it"  ....   A large SUV purchased today will burn 20,000 gallons of fuel over its lifetime; $60,000 - $80,000 worth of fuel.  Even the garden variety sedan will burn almost half that; $30,000-$40,000 over its lifetime.  That's how much money we're already spending as a society (not including subsidies like $3,000Billion wars etc).  Cut that fuel bill in half over the life of the car and that's a lot of cash to work with.  Thus, batteries / plug-in hybrids would be quite relatively affordable, as soon as they become available.  Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • Re: fuel cells vs batteries buelts on 06/06/2008 at 10:28 AM

      Posts: 9 Avg Rating:

      Good point on how much the gas cost over the life of an SUV.  It would be interesting to know how much batteries cost as a function of range for plug in hybrids and electric cars. Plug in hybrids maximize the economic return in gas saving from the high efficiency of all electric driving due to the fact that the average number of miles driven in a day by the average driver is in the tens of miles range.  For an all electric car the average driver would pay for a lot of extra battery that they would only reap the energy savings from the greater efficiency of electric operation over gas operation on a small number of longer trips. It would be nice if individual drivers could select a battery pack size as an option that suits there length of commute / driving habits.       Rate this comment: (Reply)

• running on methane nerdgrrl on 03/10/2008 at 9:04 AM

  Posts: 1

  It is true that fuel cells can run off other fuels, such as methane, propane, even natural gas (dirty methane). However, those that do run directly from such fuels are ceramic, and therefore very heavy, and very hot, and probably unreliable in jarring situations (brittle). Polymer fuel cells are light, but only accept propane and the like if there is a "reformer" at the intake- a device that separates the hydrogen from the fuel. Reformers are heavy. And expensive. Oh, and even polymer fuel cells crack in jarring situations. There is a reason that fuel cells have been relegated to spaceships and other exotic situations for 50 years. Too expensive, too persnickety, too low-efficiency. Stationary apps may have some future (i.e. home heat and electricity). Give it another 40-50 years. In the meantime solar, wind, batteries, biofuels et.al. will be improving too. If anyone wants to chat more about this see post on Talkphoria Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	Fuel Cells for Use With Renewables chumarkrch on 05/19/2008 at 1:12 PM
  Posts: 1	I don't understand why hydrogen fuel cells can't be used for applications other than vehichles? They could be used to store energy created from wind and solar, smoothing out the power curve, thus solving the problem of energy spikes and drops. Then there would also be no need to store hydrogen in an extremely safe and small container. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • 	Re: Fuel Cells for Use With Renewables energymv on 05/30/2008 at 6:54 PM
    Posts: 19 Avg Rating:	Sure technically you could do that...of course that would double the cost of your wind power plant. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• Infrastructure is key energymv on 05/30/2008 at 7:13 PM

  Posts: 19 Avg Rating:

  Even with enormous subsidies, the hydrogen fuel cell car infrastructure will not compete economically with the hybrid and electric car infrastructure in the next few decades. Like it or not the electric power infrastructure is here to stay due to overwhelming demand for electric power. A plug-in hybrid car is much more affordable and safer than a fuel cell car and natural gas reformer in the garage. Fuel cells are very sexy. Plug-in hybrids are not as sexy, but they are best suited for the job with existing infrastructure and standards, and everyone in the power technology and automotive industry knows it. In the next decade, hydrogen fuel cell car subsidies will begin to fade as the upcoming plug-in hybrid models hit the assembly line and take off like the original hybrid models (prius) did in the last decade. 2015 plug-in hybrid sales will probably triple or quadruple the 2005 hybrid sales. The only people who can't see it coming are the "hydrogen education foundation", the hydrogen lobby, and some cable news reporters. Full disclosure - I have no financial conflict of interest in either the fuel cell or plug-in hybrid car technology or infrastructure. However if I had to put my money on one, you know where I would put it. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: Infrastructure is key buelts on 06/06/2008 at 11:21 AM

    Posts: 9 Avg Rating:

    I am not certain that the safety risks associated with a natural gas reformer in a garage are greater than that of natural gas burners found in many home appliances and heating units. Hydrogen's lack of an odor and requirement for gas sensing equipment could be argued to be a greater risk. However, CO is an example of an odorless gas produced by many consumer products where the risk is effectively dealt with using sensing equipment and adequate ventilation.   On a different note a home fuel cell combined heat and hot water system is worth considering for a source of electricity for plug in hybrids. Combined heat power saves CO2 output per useful return of heat and electricity.  Fuel cells have the advantage of central power plant like efficiency at far lower power outputs.  With a central power plant, the waste heat in the process of generating electricity can't be utilized.  With a combined heat and power system in a home or community the waste heat from electricity production for transportation and residential electric power can be utilized on sight.  The waste heat from a fuel cell or gas powered car is also unrecoverable.  A second benefit of using such a system to charge a plug in hybrid is that the electric power demand is load leveled thereby improving the economics of the fuel cell.  Charging the car at night would allow the fuel cell to pay for itself more effectively by generating electricity for the car during off hours of residential electric usage. It is a waste of the capital expense of the fuel cell if it is designed to generate 5 kw for higher demand periods but spends a significant amount of its operating time at 500 watts.  Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	Automakers Criticize Fuel Cells MickeyFouse on 11/03/2008 at 6:35 PM
  Posts: 19 Avg Rating:	GM is trying to counter criticism that its vehicles use too much gasoline, contributing to environmental problems such as global warming and heightening U.S. dependence on oil from the Middle East. Toyota's parts are already involve I'm not sure with the energy saving products. Rate this comment: (Reply)